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Why are we afraid of impeachment?
by awobbly, Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:03:49 PM EST
For at least four years, there have been calls for the impeachment of both Bush and Cheney. Although it has rarely been polled, those polls that have been done find support for impeachment proceedings to be in the 40% to 50% range... very strong support for something that is almost never discussed on the media. The most recent numbers I found are from an Ipsos poll from last year.The poll interviewed 1,001 U.S. adults on October 6-9.
The poll found that 50% agreed with the statement:
"If President Bush did not tell the truth about his reasons for going to war with Iraq, Congress should consider holding him accountable by impeaching him."
44% disagreed, and 6% said they didn't know or declined to answer. The poll has a +/- 3.1% margin of error.
Among those who felt strongly either way, 39% strongly agreed, while 30% strongly disagreed.
This was before the recent release of documents proving that Bush absolutely did lie about his justifications for the war. So what are we afraid of?
About a year ago, I penned the letter below to my Representative, Jim McDermott, and to the Representative of the district adjacent to mine, Jay Inslee. It refutes many of the canards as to why impeachment is unwise or impractical.
Representative Jim McDermott
1809 7th Ave.
Suite 1212
Seattle, WA 98101
Dear Mr. McDermott:
I am contacting you to ask that you reconsider your position on conducting impeachment proceedings against President George W. Bush.
I have listened closely to the arguments against pursuing this course of action, and I understand them. I also understand and appreciate that you have been one of President Bush's staunchest critics and that you have opposed his policies, both domestic and international, with vigor. I am grateful for what you have done and for what you continue to do for your constituents.
However, I believe that the majority of reasons given for not impeaching this President are based on faulty reasoning.
It is often argued that impeachment proceedings would rally support for the President. I am not sure what the basis for this argument is. If this argument is valid, it would be logical to assume that the current investigations taking place in the House and Senate would also have this effect. Yet as investigations continue and more evidence of corruption, malfeasance and legally questionable acts on the part of this administration surface, the President's approval ratings continue to spiral downward. In any case, it seems irrelevant; if George Bush has committed impeachable acts, it is inappropriate for House Members, who swore to uphold and defend the Constitution, not to act.
Another popular argument against impeachment hearings is that they would be a 'diversion' from the laudable goals of ending the Iraq War and enacting other legislation. But the reality is that many of this President's impeachable acts relate directly to this war. Thus, Articles of Impeachment strengthen the case for ending the war and help turn the tide further in opposition to this nation's continued occupation of Iraq. Meanwhile, with slim majorities in both houses, Democrats cannot pass any significant progressive legislation that could survive a veto or signing statement, and the record shows it. To quote Janis Joplin, "If you ain't got nothin', you got nothin' to lose."
Many beltway insiders insist that there is no popular support for impeachment, and that the public simply would not stand for it. This is not true, and flies in the face of the evidence. The few scientific polls done on impeachment, such as one conducted last October by Newsweek, show a slim majority favoring impeachment. Most recently, a poll conducted by the firm Insider Advantage/Majority Opinion (run by former Newt Gingrich aide Matt Towery) and printed in the conservative journal Human Events found 4 in 10 respondents supporting impeachment.
The scariest thought for some is that impeaching the President would elevate Dick Cheney to POTUS. And yet there is little doubt that Mr. Cheney already wields a tremendous amount of influence in this administration, so I don't see how this makes much difference. Further, I don't see how a man with a 9% approval rating could be effective in advancing his agenda as President. He would be the lamest lame duck ever.
It is claimed by many that impeachment would prove divisive for the country. To this I respond that the voters in the '06 elections voted for a divided government. The electorate voiced their opposition to this administration. It is the President who has acted in a divisive manner. It is his intransigence that makes taking this stand inevitable. It is better to act sooner rather than later.
This President's high crimes are self evident. They do not need investigation. From ordering the NSA to spy on Americans' communications without a warrant, which a federal judge has already declared a felony, to obstruction of justice in the Valerie Plame case, to conspiracy in the Niger "yellowcake" document forgery scandal to criminal negligence in responding to Katrina disaster, this administration has earned impeachment. It is OUR duty to begin impeachment proceedings with haste and determination.
I think the strongest argument for the impeachment of George W. Bush is this; We are supposed to a nation governed by the rule of law. Our international credibility hinges upon this assumption. Our domestic stability hinges upon this assumption. If we, as a nation, as a people , do not act to pursue the rule of law and hold this administration accountable, then we will never be able to recover from the damage to our judicial system. We will forever be dismissed as untrustworthy, and our words and deeds will be ignored and derided. We will forever shut the doors on the promise of America.
This is why I now must ask you and Representative Jay Inslee to step forward and co-author and introduce Articles of Impeachment against George W. Bush. The time is right and you two are the right people. You both have the advantage of incumbency and strong support. Your constituents would overwhelmingly support you.
History occasionally calls upon the few to act resolutely on the behalf of the many. History is calling on you now. I am confident that you will do the correct thing.
Thank You for your time,
As I reread that letter today, it rings more true than the day I wrote it. It occurred to me yesterday that for a legal system based on precedent to allow George W. Bush to walk away unscathed from his crimes sets a very, very bad precedent. To not impeach this administration is to completely and totally abandon the rule of law.
That is what I am afraid of.
UPDATE House votes on impeachment. Passed to Judiciary community with 24 Republicans voting yes.
Tags: impeachment, bush, justice, democracy (all tags)
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Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (none / 0)
I don't know that anyone is afraid of impeachment, but I think there is an argument to be made that that window has passed. At this point, Bush is a lame duck and keeping him in office arguably is far more useful than kicking him out. Maybe that's not very principled, but it is a practical consideration.
by rfahey22 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:12:05 PM EST
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (2.00 / 2)
What of the precedent that establishes? If the concept of the unitary executive as defined by this administration is not challenged, how will democracy survive in the future?
Bush Murders Soldiers
by awobbly on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:15:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (none / 0)
We did not impeach Lincoln and we survived thus far.
Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:35:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (2.00 / 1)
The theory of the unitary executive was first set forth by Alexander Hamilton in the Federalist Papers. It is as old as the country itself, and one reading of the Constitution permits that interpretation, so it is likely impossible to ever reject it completely. Also, I don't think congressional precedent necessarily carries a lot of weight. Bush is deeply unpopular and the Republicans have endured significant losses as a result of their ties to him. That in itself may be a great motivator. Moreover, as noted above, Lincoln himself acted in this mold, and the country survived.
by rfahey22 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:57:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (2.00 / 1)
It can and will be challenged... but it's easier to challenge it when we're in a position to do so. Like if we hold the White House and Congress, and are in a position to nominate our people to SCOTUS and lower courts.
I don't think impeachment would provide the challenge we need to the unitary executive anyway; it would simply be a statement that this unitary executive was criminally out of line. We need something more definitive and precedent-setting like a court ruling or Constitutional amendment that more or less permanently sets the parameters of executive power.
John McCain isn't much of a fan of women's rights.
by mistersite on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:58:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (2.00 / 1)
Because the Democrats sold us out for power.
Because the Democrats are taking a page from the Republican playbook and ignoring the fact that most people support impeachment if it can be proven that Bush lied about going to war with Iraq.
Because we have become what we hate the most.
Speaking for me only.
by JustJennifer on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:17:00 PM EST
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (2.00 / 1)
its not just you. i will ditto that and add:
the dems have been the biggest beneficiaries of bush/cheny's crimes (except for certain businesses) it would have been unlikely that they would have the house and senate without the help of this administration.
impeachment hearings on many of 35 items brought up by rep kucinich would likely not implicate any dems but would certainly illustrate how complacent they have been for the past seven years....and why switch dice when you're on a roll.
very sad.
by citizendave on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:39:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (2.00 / 2)
right.so right.
hell if we can impeach Bill Clinton for being a slut, why cant we IMPEACH Bush for being an actual CRIMINAL, or at least lying that caused thousands of deaths of Americans and Iraqi's alike.
[How can Bush even sleep at night?---- Does pure evil even sleep?]
a traitor to my own generation.
by alyssa chaos on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:23:46 PM EST
That's the thing about (2.00 / 1)
Bush's particular brand of evil. He believes what he's doing is righteous. He feels no guilt, as far as I can see. Not that he has much of a conscience anyway.
Support forced pregnancy? Vote John McCain 2008!
by sricki on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:30:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: That's the thing about (2.00 / 1)
I wonder about Laura. Like how could she sleep next to him.
[she must pop a couple of sleeping pills to sleep next to pure evil.]
a traitor to my own generation.
by alyssa chaos on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:32:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe (2.00 / 1)
she shares his delusions. I pity her, though.
Support forced pregnancy? Vote John McCain 2008!
by sricki on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:37:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: That's the thing about Laura (none / 0)
Better to not go there.
by susie on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:27:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (none / 0)
My biggest concern is that impeachment proceedings could unify the republican party and will most likely accomplish little to nothing is way of changing the policy that makes the proceedings necessary. This said, my concerns are to 1. stop the criminal policy and 2. punish the Bush administration. If putting punishment first will help to continue the policies (get McCain elected) then they are not worth it.
by AIegra on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:24:05 PM EST
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (none / 0)
I don't mind the idea in principle. But the effect of impeaching a President (and VP?) who have seven months left in office and who can't really pass anything because of an opposition Congress might be minimal.
In fact, I'd not be surprised if the process took most of the remaining time in office, whilst simultaneously taking attention away from where it should be...on our great Presidential nominee and a lot of candidates for Congress and local office that look to make this a landslide year for Democrats.
It would make for a much more contentious election season, and would take away from Obama's message of unity (American...not intra-party) and hope.
Donate to Obama, Today!
by freedom78 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:29:16 PM EST
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (none / 0)
I would conceivably support impeachment, but a conviction is a huge hurdle, so it would be best to make absolutely sure that it was an iron clad case. You need 67 votes in the Senate - right now, I think maybe, maybe, 25 Senator would vote to convict. No president has been convicted of an impeachable offence of the three that have been impeached.
by NewOaklandDem on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:31:29 PM EST
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (2.00 / 2)
Well with the time left, I doubt it could get to the Senate. My concern is more about the long term effect on the rule of law. I see no other avenue to stopping or slowing this governments decent into despotism than impeachment proceedings. thoughts?
Bush Murders Soldiers
by awobbly on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:39:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (2.00 / 1)
To me, it's clear that he should be impeached. And I do not want to fall into the "there's only a few months to go".
On the other hand, it speaks to practicality. I would fear the opposite of what I think you're talking - every president getting impeached during his/her term. It would be a mess, and even less would get done.
Ulimately then, I am undecided on the current issue. I remember a Doonsbury cartoon fromthe 70's, two congressmen talking about Nixon's impending impeachment: "If only he'd knock over a bank". I just don't know how solid the case for impeachment would be.
by NewOaklandDem on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:48:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe we don't need a conviction... (none / 0)
How about having the impeachment go forward after the Nov. election?
After all, an impeachment is one thing, a conviction is another.
Just the idea of having the charges brought forward, documented for history, and if the clock runs out-so be it. Nothing really lost but the people will have been heard.
Even though the new Congress will not be in office, the nation and the world will understand the intent and it will not be lost to history.
Bush always says "history will judge" him; let's make sure that it does.
by susie on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:42:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Maybe we don't need a conviction... (2.00 / 2)
Between the House and the Senate, there are 535 people who swore to defend the constitution. I think that oath obligates them, legally, to hear the case against this administration.
Bush Murders Soldiers
by awobbly on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:48:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Maybe we don't need a conviction... (none / 0)
Good point.
by susie on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:58:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (none / 0)
Not afraid, just a waste of time. Bush leaves office in eight months, I could live with that.
Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:36:27 PM EST
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (2.00 / 2)
Can you continue to live with an unchallenged unitary executive, regardless of whether their name is Obama, Clinton, McCain, et al.? Do you trust the next president, (and the next, and the next), with the powers claimed by this one?
Bush Murders Soldiers
by awobbly on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:43:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (none / 0)
How is impeaching Bush going to change any of that?
Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:48:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (2.00 / 1)
If Bush leaves unchallenged, the 'Bush way' becomes the norm... the signing statements, the obstruction of justice, the perjury, all of it becomes standard operating procedure. Will we be a democracy then?
Bush Murders Soldiers
by awobbly on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 04:27:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's an excellent letter. (2.00 / 3)
No fear here. It's the right thing to do. I don't care how many months he has left in office -- there's still plenty of time for him to strike Iran, which I think is a distinct possibility, since the GOP knows it might influence the election if they did it in the fall.
And even if we fail, even if the impeachment doesn't go through, it's still worth it. We need to send a message to the administration and the entire country. Right now, we look pretty spineless. Democrats are constantly complaining about Bush and the war, but we've taken no action. How is that perceived by others? I can't help but think that we should either do something, or stop griping.
Support forced pregnancy? Vote John McCain 2008!
by sricki on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:36:50 PM EST
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (2.00 / 1)
We all have blood on our hands..
This is not something we want to admit to..so we don't....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nSA472_n KM
"harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instantaneous lobotomy"
by nogo postal on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:37:59 PM EST
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (2.00 / 1)
Firstly, impeachment was completely impossible prior to our victories in 2006 - actually... prior to January 2007 since we didn't take over until then. After that it became possible but extremely unlikely because we can't even get 60 votes for cloture let alone 67 needed to impeach.
So what would it accomplish at this point? We're about to take back the White House and expand our majorities in both houses of Congress. I think it's better to investigate the Bush presidency after he leaves office and then prosecute where necessary, than pursue an impeachment that is doomed to failure.
John McCain - That third Bush term you always dreamed of.
by Didion on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:41:50 PM EST
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (none / 0)
Will anyone pursue invastigations after Jan. '09?
Bush Murders Soldiers
by awobbly on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:45:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (none / 0)
Waxman!
We'll need to hold their feet to the fire to get them to investigate and prosecute, but they will. Even a jellyfish like Rockefeller got phase 2 of his investigation done after Republicans tried to kill it.
With bigger majorities and grassroots pressure and a President who won't block investigations, I hope we can fully expose the Bush presidency to the light of day.
John McCain - That third Bush term you always dreamed of.
by Didion on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:02:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would like to hear the argument play out (2.00 / 1)
If there were some way of having the impeachment debate play out on a national level over the space of one week, I'd love to hear it.
What we don't need, however, is a huge acrimonious process that divides the nation down the middle and distracts from how awesome Barack Obama is.
In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:43:37 PM EST
Re: I would like to hear the argument play out (none / 0)
How awesome will Obama be if he claims the same unitary powers that this president has? Not saying he would, mind you, he is after all a constitutional scholar. but what of the next president? And the next?
Bush Murders Soldiers
by awobbly on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:48:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Pretty awesome, actually (2.00 / 1)
My guess is that one of Obama's first term priorities will be dismantling the culture of Executive branch fiat that got us into this mess in the first place. Since he's so into transparent government, my guess is that, by the time he leaves, it's going to be damn hard for someone to take Bush-style liberties with the office.
In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:58:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
because dems are cowards (none / 0)
Welcome to a Landslide without white Working class, Latinos, Women, Seniors and holding-on sweeties
by engels on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:44:25 PM EST
Re: because dems are cowards (none / 0)
holy shit!
i kinda almost agree with the infamous engels!!!!
unity can't be far away....................
(can it? )
by citizendave on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:44:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (2.00 / 3)
I hate to even think about it, but if Bush strikes against Iran before he leaves office everyone will be wondering why we didn't stop him sooner. And that is more than a distinct possibility.
I fear it will be another wake up call that came way too late. UGH
by JustJennifer on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:46:18 PM EST
Precisely! (2.00 / 1)
And he'll do it in either September or October. Nothing wins an election for the Republicans like a good dose of fear.
Support forced pregnancy? Vote John McCain 2008!
by sricki on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:49:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Precisely! (none / 0)
I don't think the public is going to fall for fear mongering this year. Nothing is going to make McCains numbers drop faster than the thought of another war.
John McCain - That third Bush term you always dreamed of.
by Didion on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:04:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Precisely! (none / 0)
I don't think George Bush's first concern is helping McCain get elected.
by JustJennifer on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:07:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (none / 0)
That's my current fear. There's no good answers here.
by NewOaklandDem on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:49:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
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by awobbly, Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:03:49 PM EST
For at least four years, there have been calls for the impeachment of both Bush and Cheney. Although it has rarely been polled, those polls that have been done find support for impeachment proceedings to be in the 40% to 50% range... very strong support for something that is almost never discussed on the media. The most recent numbers I found are from an Ipsos poll from last year.The poll interviewed 1,001 U.S. adults on October 6-9.
The poll found that 50% agreed with the statement:
"If President Bush did not tell the truth about his reasons for going to war with Iraq, Congress should consider holding him accountable by impeaching him."
44% disagreed, and 6% said they didn't know or declined to answer. The poll has a +/- 3.1% margin of error.
Among those who felt strongly either way, 39% strongly agreed, while 30% strongly disagreed.
This was before the recent release of documents proving that Bush absolutely did lie about his justifications for the war. So what are we afraid of?
About a year ago, I penned the letter below to my Representative, Jim McDermott, and to the Representative of the district adjacent to mine, Jay Inslee. It refutes many of the canards as to why impeachment is unwise or impractical.
Representative Jim McDermott
1809 7th Ave.
Suite 1212
Seattle, WA 98101
Dear Mr. McDermott:
I am contacting you to ask that you reconsider your position on conducting impeachment proceedings against President George W. Bush.
I have listened closely to the arguments against pursuing this course of action, and I understand them. I also understand and appreciate that you have been one of President Bush's staunchest critics and that you have opposed his policies, both domestic and international, with vigor. I am grateful for what you have done and for what you continue to do for your constituents.
However, I believe that the majority of reasons given for not impeaching this President are based on faulty reasoning.
It is often argued that impeachment proceedings would rally support for the President. I am not sure what the basis for this argument is. If this argument is valid, it would be logical to assume that the current investigations taking place in the House and Senate would also have this effect. Yet as investigations continue and more evidence of corruption, malfeasance and legally questionable acts on the part of this administration surface, the President's approval ratings continue to spiral downward. In any case, it seems irrelevant; if George Bush has committed impeachable acts, it is inappropriate for House Members, who swore to uphold and defend the Constitution, not to act.
Another popular argument against impeachment hearings is that they would be a 'diversion' from the laudable goals of ending the Iraq War and enacting other legislation. But the reality is that many of this President's impeachable acts relate directly to this war. Thus, Articles of Impeachment strengthen the case for ending the war and help turn the tide further in opposition to this nation's continued occupation of Iraq. Meanwhile, with slim majorities in both houses, Democrats cannot pass any significant progressive legislation that could survive a veto or signing statement, and the record shows it. To quote Janis Joplin, "If you ain't got nothin', you got nothin' to lose."
Many beltway insiders insist that there is no popular support for impeachment, and that the public simply would not stand for it. This is not true, and flies in the face of the evidence. The few scientific polls done on impeachment, such as one conducted last October by Newsweek, show a slim majority favoring impeachment. Most recently, a poll conducted by the firm Insider Advantage/Majority Opinion (run by former Newt Gingrich aide Matt Towery) and printed in the conservative journal Human Events found 4 in 10 respondents supporting impeachment.
The scariest thought for some is that impeaching the President would elevate Dick Cheney to POTUS. And yet there is little doubt that Mr. Cheney already wields a tremendous amount of influence in this administration, so I don't see how this makes much difference. Further, I don't see how a man with a 9% approval rating could be effective in advancing his agenda as President. He would be the lamest lame duck ever.
It is claimed by many that impeachment would prove divisive for the country. To this I respond that the voters in the '06 elections voted for a divided government. The electorate voiced their opposition to this administration. It is the President who has acted in a divisive manner. It is his intransigence that makes taking this stand inevitable. It is better to act sooner rather than later.
This President's high crimes are self evident. They do not need investigation. From ordering the NSA to spy on Americans' communications without a warrant, which a federal judge has already declared a felony, to obstruction of justice in the Valerie Plame case, to conspiracy in the Niger "yellowcake" document forgery scandal to criminal negligence in responding to Katrina disaster, this administration has earned impeachment. It is OUR duty to begin impeachment proceedings with haste and determination.
I think the strongest argument for the impeachment of George W. Bush is this; We are supposed to a nation governed by the rule of law. Our international credibility hinges upon this assumption. Our domestic stability hinges upon this assumption. If we, as a nation, as a people , do not act to pursue the rule of law and hold this administration accountable, then we will never be able to recover from the damage to our judicial system. We will forever be dismissed as untrustworthy, and our words and deeds will be ignored and derided. We will forever shut the doors on the promise of America.
This is why I now must ask you and Representative Jay Inslee to step forward and co-author and introduce Articles of Impeachment against George W. Bush. The time is right and you two are the right people. You both have the advantage of incumbency and strong support. Your constituents would overwhelmingly support you.
History occasionally calls upon the few to act resolutely on the behalf of the many. History is calling on you now. I am confident that you will do the correct thing.
Thank You for your time,
As I reread that letter today, it rings more true than the day I wrote it. It occurred to me yesterday that for a legal system based on precedent to allow George W. Bush to walk away unscathed from his crimes sets a very, very bad precedent. To not impeach this administration is to completely and totally abandon the rule of law.
That is what I am afraid of.
UPDATE House votes on impeachment. Passed to Judiciary community with 24 Republicans voting yes.
Tags: impeachment, bush, justice, democracy (all tags)
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Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (none / 0)
I don't know that anyone is afraid of impeachment, but I think there is an argument to be made that that window has passed. At this point, Bush is a lame duck and keeping him in office arguably is far more useful than kicking him out. Maybe that's not very principled, but it is a practical consideration.
by rfahey22 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:12:05 PM EST
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (2.00 / 2)
What of the precedent that establishes? If the concept of the unitary executive as defined by this administration is not challenged, how will democracy survive in the future?
Bush Murders Soldiers
by awobbly on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:15:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (none / 0)
We did not impeach Lincoln and we survived thus far.
Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:35:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (2.00 / 1)
The theory of the unitary executive was first set forth by Alexander Hamilton in the Federalist Papers. It is as old as the country itself, and one reading of the Constitution permits that interpretation, so it is likely impossible to ever reject it completely. Also, I don't think congressional precedent necessarily carries a lot of weight. Bush is deeply unpopular and the Republicans have endured significant losses as a result of their ties to him. That in itself may be a great motivator. Moreover, as noted above, Lincoln himself acted in this mold, and the country survived.
by rfahey22 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:57:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (2.00 / 1)
It can and will be challenged... but it's easier to challenge it when we're in a position to do so. Like if we hold the White House and Congress, and are in a position to nominate our people to SCOTUS and lower courts.
I don't think impeachment would provide the challenge we need to the unitary executive anyway; it would simply be a statement that this unitary executive was criminally out of line. We need something more definitive and precedent-setting like a court ruling or Constitutional amendment that more or less permanently sets the parameters of executive power.
John McCain isn't much of a fan of women's rights.
by mistersite on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:58:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (2.00 / 1)
Because the Democrats sold us out for power.
Because the Democrats are taking a page from the Republican playbook and ignoring the fact that most people support impeachment if it can be proven that Bush lied about going to war with Iraq.
Because we have become what we hate the most.
Speaking for me only.
by JustJennifer on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:17:00 PM EST
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (2.00 / 1)
its not just you. i will ditto that and add:
the dems have been the biggest beneficiaries of bush/cheny's crimes (except for certain businesses) it would have been unlikely that they would have the house and senate without the help of this administration.
impeachment hearings on many of 35 items brought up by rep kucinich would likely not implicate any dems but would certainly illustrate how complacent they have been for the past seven years....and why switch dice when you're on a roll.
very sad.
by citizendave on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:39:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (2.00 / 2)
right.so right.
hell if we can impeach Bill Clinton for being a slut, why cant we IMPEACH Bush for being an actual CRIMINAL, or at least lying that caused thousands of deaths of Americans and Iraqi's alike.
[How can Bush even sleep at night?---- Does pure evil even sleep?]
a traitor to my own generation.
by alyssa chaos on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:23:46 PM EST
That's the thing about (2.00 / 1)
Bush's particular brand of evil. He believes what he's doing is righteous. He feels no guilt, as far as I can see. Not that he has much of a conscience anyway.
Support forced pregnancy? Vote John McCain 2008!
by sricki on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:30:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: That's the thing about (2.00 / 1)
I wonder about Laura. Like how could she sleep next to him.
[she must pop a couple of sleeping pills to sleep next to pure evil.]
a traitor to my own generation.
by alyssa chaos on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:32:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe (2.00 / 1)
she shares his delusions. I pity her, though.
Support forced pregnancy? Vote John McCain 2008!
by sricki on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:37:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: That's the thing about Laura (none / 0)
Better to not go there.
by susie on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:27:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (none / 0)
My biggest concern is that impeachment proceedings could unify the republican party and will most likely accomplish little to nothing is way of changing the policy that makes the proceedings necessary. This said, my concerns are to 1. stop the criminal policy and 2. punish the Bush administration. If putting punishment first will help to continue the policies (get McCain elected) then they are not worth it.
by AIegra on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:24:05 PM EST
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (none / 0)
I don't mind the idea in principle. But the effect of impeaching a President (and VP?) who have seven months left in office and who can't really pass anything because of an opposition Congress might be minimal.
In fact, I'd not be surprised if the process took most of the remaining time in office, whilst simultaneously taking attention away from where it should be...on our great Presidential nominee and a lot of candidates for Congress and local office that look to make this a landslide year for Democrats.
It would make for a much more contentious election season, and would take away from Obama's message of unity (American...not intra-party) and hope.
Donate to Obama, Today!
by freedom78 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:29:16 PM EST
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (none / 0)
I would conceivably support impeachment, but a conviction is a huge hurdle, so it would be best to make absolutely sure that it was an iron clad case. You need 67 votes in the Senate - right now, I think maybe, maybe, 25 Senator would vote to convict. No president has been convicted of an impeachable offence of the three that have been impeached.
by NewOaklandDem on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:31:29 PM EST
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (2.00 / 2)
Well with the time left, I doubt it could get to the Senate. My concern is more about the long term effect on the rule of law. I see no other avenue to stopping or slowing this governments decent into despotism than impeachment proceedings. thoughts?
Bush Murders Soldiers
by awobbly on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:39:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (2.00 / 1)
To me, it's clear that he should be impeached. And I do not want to fall into the "there's only a few months to go".
On the other hand, it speaks to practicality. I would fear the opposite of what I think you're talking - every president getting impeached during his/her term. It would be a mess, and even less would get done.
Ulimately then, I am undecided on the current issue. I remember a Doonsbury cartoon fromthe 70's, two congressmen talking about Nixon's impending impeachment: "If only he'd knock over a bank". I just don't know how solid the case for impeachment would be.
by NewOaklandDem on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:48:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe we don't need a conviction... (none / 0)
How about having the impeachment go forward after the Nov. election?
After all, an impeachment is one thing, a conviction is another.
Just the idea of having the charges brought forward, documented for history, and if the clock runs out-so be it. Nothing really lost but the people will have been heard.
Even though the new Congress will not be in office, the nation and the world will understand the intent and it will not be lost to history.
Bush always says "history will judge" him; let's make sure that it does.
by susie on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:42:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Maybe we don't need a conviction... (2.00 / 2)
Between the House and the Senate, there are 535 people who swore to defend the constitution. I think that oath obligates them, legally, to hear the case against this administration.
Bush Murders Soldiers
by awobbly on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:48:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Maybe we don't need a conviction... (none / 0)
Good point.
by susie on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:58:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (none / 0)
Not afraid, just a waste of time. Bush leaves office in eight months, I could live with that.
Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:36:27 PM EST
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (2.00 / 2)
Can you continue to live with an unchallenged unitary executive, regardless of whether their name is Obama, Clinton, McCain, et al.? Do you trust the next president, (and the next, and the next), with the powers claimed by this one?
Bush Murders Soldiers
by awobbly on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:43:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (none / 0)
How is impeaching Bush going to change any of that?
Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:48:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (2.00 / 1)
If Bush leaves unchallenged, the 'Bush way' becomes the norm... the signing statements, the obstruction of justice, the perjury, all of it becomes standard operating procedure. Will we be a democracy then?
Bush Murders Soldiers
by awobbly on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 04:27:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's an excellent letter. (2.00 / 3)
No fear here. It's the right thing to do. I don't care how many months he has left in office -- there's still plenty of time for him to strike Iran, which I think is a distinct possibility, since the GOP knows it might influence the election if they did it in the fall.
And even if we fail, even if the impeachment doesn't go through, it's still worth it. We need to send a message to the administration and the entire country. Right now, we look pretty spineless. Democrats are constantly complaining about Bush and the war, but we've taken no action. How is that perceived by others? I can't help but think that we should either do something, or stop griping.
Support forced pregnancy? Vote John McCain 2008!
by sricki on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:36:50 PM EST
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (2.00 / 1)
We all have blood on our hands..
This is not something we want to admit to..so we don't....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nSA472_n KM
"harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instantaneous lobotomy"
by nogo postal on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:37:59 PM EST
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (2.00 / 1)
Firstly, impeachment was completely impossible prior to our victories in 2006 - actually... prior to January 2007 since we didn't take over until then. After that it became possible but extremely unlikely because we can't even get 60 votes for cloture let alone 67 needed to impeach.
So what would it accomplish at this point? We're about to take back the White House and expand our majorities in both houses of Congress. I think it's better to investigate the Bush presidency after he leaves office and then prosecute where necessary, than pursue an impeachment that is doomed to failure.
John McCain - That third Bush term you always dreamed of.
by Didion on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:41:50 PM EST
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (none / 0)
Will anyone pursue invastigations after Jan. '09?
Bush Murders Soldiers
by awobbly on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:45:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (none / 0)
Waxman!
We'll need to hold their feet to the fire to get them to investigate and prosecute, but they will. Even a jellyfish like Rockefeller got phase 2 of his investigation done after Republicans tried to kill it.
With bigger majorities and grassroots pressure and a President who won't block investigations, I hope we can fully expose the Bush presidency to the light of day.
John McCain - That third Bush term you always dreamed of.
by Didion on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:02:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would like to hear the argument play out (2.00 / 1)
If there were some way of having the impeachment debate play out on a national level over the space of one week, I'd love to hear it.
What we don't need, however, is a huge acrimonious process that divides the nation down the middle and distracts from how awesome Barack Obama is.
In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:43:37 PM EST
Re: I would like to hear the argument play out (none / 0)
How awesome will Obama be if he claims the same unitary powers that this president has? Not saying he would, mind you, he is after all a constitutional scholar. but what of the next president? And the next?
Bush Murders Soldiers
by awobbly on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:48:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Pretty awesome, actually (2.00 / 1)
My guess is that one of Obama's first term priorities will be dismantling the culture of Executive branch fiat that got us into this mess in the first place. Since he's so into transparent government, my guess is that, by the time he leaves, it's going to be damn hard for someone to take Bush-style liberties with the office.
In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.
by Dracomicron on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:58:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
because dems are cowards (none / 0)
Welcome to a Landslide without white Working class, Latinos, Women, Seniors and holding-on sweeties
by engels on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:44:25 PM EST
Re: because dems are cowards (none / 0)
holy shit!
i kinda almost agree with the infamous engels!!!!
unity can't be far away....................
(can it? )
by citizendave on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:44:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (2.00 / 3)
I hate to even think about it, but if Bush strikes against Iran before he leaves office everyone will be wondering why we didn't stop him sooner. And that is more than a distinct possibility.
I fear it will be another wake up call that came way too late. UGH
by JustJennifer on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:46:18 PM EST
Precisely! (2.00 / 1)
And he'll do it in either September or October. Nothing wins an election for the Republicans like a good dose of fear.
Support forced pregnancy? Vote John McCain 2008!
by sricki on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:49:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Precisely! (none / 0)
I don't think the public is going to fall for fear mongering this year. Nothing is going to make McCains numbers drop faster than the thought of another war.
John McCain - That third Bush term you always dreamed of.
by Didion on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:04:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Precisely! (none / 0)
I don't think George Bush's first concern is helping McCain get elected.
by JustJennifer on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:07:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Why are we afraid of impeachment? (none / 0)
That's my current fear. There's no good answers here.
by NewOaklandDem on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 02:49:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
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* George won't listen to DC. Citizens of Washington, DC can do lots of things:
Sit on juries
Fight wars
Pay taxes
Know what they can't do?
Vote for Congress.
And George doesn't seem to care.
So George is getting professional help.
It's the Dr. Bill show.
Take a look for yourself.
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